Some can't relate - well baby, that's life.

[raybear]

1. After a conversation yesterday afternoon over a patty melt, I've been thinking about the difference between opinionated and judgmental. Not the Webster's definition, obviously, but rather what are the actions and interpretations and use and et cetera, et cetera. In my turning over of the evidence stored in my brain, I'm sorting into two piles, one side being the actions/words, the other side being the lens that sees such. Nothing conclusive has been reached so far, I'm just in the preliminary musing stage of the scientific method.

2. I can't believe they made a new Charlotte's Web movie and that they added damn characters. Those people are hellbound. At least, to the literary hell that's about the only one I imagine to exist.

3. I find it very soothing and relaxing to comb out my beard, against the grain making it all fluffy and blown out.

4. I just found out they made the novel Perfume into a movie that's opening soon, so now I want to hurry and read it. It's been on my short "to-be read" list (and by short I mean approximately 30 titles) and since I haven't started a novel yet, this one has moved to the head of the class. My reading triage is a little ridiculous and frequently the next choice is dependent on mysterious signs from the universe. Like finding out it got adapted into a movie.

5. I bought a new coffemaker, that is an 8-cup french press method, but in an insulated brushed silver pot. I'm hesitant to make grand statements about it since it's not in my hands, but based on the pictures and descriptions, I am anticipating deep affection and excitement. It was drastically slashed in price on Amazon.com plus I signed up for a 30 day free trial of something to get free shipping. Note to self: remember to cancel that in 4 weeks. Until then, maybe I should buy a bunch random stuff to get more free shipping. I wonder if they sell mattresses.

Comments

[unscrambled.livejournal.com]

Oh, maybe I'm misspeaking--what I'm suggesting here is that it's all lens because there's no actions that are objectively neutral.

I think it's not true that this is a slippery slope (or rather, that the slippery slope claim is bogus when people invoke it--how's that for judgment? I mean, opinion.)--of course, we have a contextual/cultural/etc. lens which we come from, but part of that is being aware (to some degree or another) about how what we say will be taken--of course, there's always misinterpretation, but when someone pronounces judgement (opinion), I think it's safe to say (that in US culture at least) that the speaker is somewhat aware that there are differing opinions, and people may in fact be bothered by them. Particularly when one's judgements (opinions) are issued about politics and/or someone's mother/partner/hairstyle/mother's partner's hairstyle.

Actually, that's a really optimistic claim, isn't it? The suggestion that people aren't totally fucking oblivious to the judgmental (opinionated!) shit that they say? Maybe my claim is that people are something on the order of "dimly aware" of the bullshit they spew. They just don't care. The point is, we have a lens--but we know that there are at least some people who think differently. Sometimes. Dimly.

Hi, I'm going to go back to my physics class now. I'm sure after the half hour of lecture that I'll get (post exam) that I'll be totally enlightened on all topics and ready to delve into profound and deep thoughts. Or I'll go home and drink.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

Who said anything about slippery slopes? I was just using the word "slippery", as in not-objective, as in sliding the blame back to the person feeling judged, which was maybe poor choosing precisely because of the association with the supposed-concept (which I also find generally bogue). Note to self: begin campaign to reclaim the word slippery.

I should also add, that I'm thinking about these lenses and whatnot less among interactions with strangers and casual acquaintances and co-workers, and more among interactions in closer relationships, and where are the lines and what are the ways to keep them in check (assuming these last two questions are unique to the individuals involved).

[dommeyourass.livejournal.com]

i've been thinking about "judgmental" recently also. but more in the realm of what is being "judgmental" and what is "addressing hurtful behavior that needs to be corrected." but that's my issue and not the issue you posed.

for me...opinionated means i or the other person is stating their opinion on whatever topic without expecting any reaction/change of behavior on the listener. they are stating their opinion just to be heard. just to state it. no hidden meaning behind it. it is generally constructive and part of a larger sharing of ideas.

whereas judgmental has with it an added layer of expectation or implied meaning (and this is where the lens comes in to potentially skew the received meaning). either that the person can't make decisions well for themselves, they don't know better (i.e. they are stupid), that the speaker is superior, that the listener isn't "good enough," or that the speaker is hurtful and needs to change their behavior. i'm sure there are others. therefore, it is generally destructive and meant to bolster some stated or implied motive.

i'd welcome your differentiation on my pairing as well.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

i agree...but it's still fuzzy depending on the topic and on the perspective of the speaker and the listener. and that there isn't necessarily a right answer no matter what. but i'm also wonder if the two are more closely linked than that.

say we are discussing something to do with taste, which is a personal matter to some degree, with varying levels of objectivity. so for example, a movie. i say i like it because it has x, y, and z. you say you hate it because it has a, b, and c. i defend my point vigorously and so do you. afterwards, we both feel emotionally pretty shitty. but another time, we might feel positively charged and intellectually challenged. i'm sure some of the difference might be tone and style and whatnot, but on paper, they are objectively the same conversation, and so i'm wondering, what is the personal connection to that opinion that we have so much so that when someone doesn't share it, it becomes a judgment? whenever someone says "we just agree to disagree" i feel that pit in my stomach that doesn't feel so good, that those situations never feel resolved or positive. i think the movie example is a lot easier to let go though -- once the emotions die down a little and it's put in perspective, both parties realize it is of no great consequences.

but what about when the same conversation happens but the topic is something like a person's job, or who they are friends with, or who they are partnered with? where does the line get drawn with stating an opinion? that scenario is outside of the "addressing hurtful behavior" realm. i mean, unless their boss or friend or partner is beating them up or whatever. (though even in that extreme situation, it's still slippery.) so taking one of these examples, if someone thinks your friend is a bad person, and they tell you that, wouldn't you feel judged by that person because you remain friends with them? and aren't we judging people when we have those opinions? i think we maybe can't get away from the judging completely in thoughts, only in actions. but still, it sucks to know someone is thinking those things, or to be the person thinking them.

i think maybe i just decided something, at least for myself. the difference between an opinion and a judgment is whether it was solicited. when opinions are inserted without asking, or the timing of announcing such opinion feels manipulative, that is when i feel judged, because that's when it fits your criteria of revealing a motive rather than just stating a thought or feeling.

[unscrambled.livejournal.com]

I like your reclamation of the word slippery. Definitely, I applied it to the slope. Maybe because I rarely do anything but fall all the way down when I slip. Or that I'm a lazy reader (tonight, I'd like to hope not always)

I think the lens angle is more prnounced in close relationships. If there's an opinion within/about/affecting a close relationship, then both people have more of a sense about where the other person is coming from. And, it can be argued that both have more of an obligation to wrangle with each other about how both saw the actions/words. That the actions and words are even less separable from the lens.