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raybearSo, I went out on a limb and asked my old friend about her current spiritual identity and belief system. I got a somewhat adequate answer, though I am interested in how she arrived to her current place. But then she said this:
"You didn't mention where you are in the whole scheme of things...Ball's back in your court."
This is problematic for me, for several reasons. The obvious being that I don't really have a shtick. I'm currently a dabbler, when it comes to organized religion. Hell, I'm even a dabbler when it comes to spiritual concepts and theism. The only thing I know for sure (right now) is that I'm agnostic, which basically means not only do I now know about God/the big how and why, but I believe it's impossible for any person to ever fully know. Some people say they're agnostic atheist, which basically means they don't know and they live their life as if there is no God. I think I might be an agnostic buddhist, which basically means I don't know but choose to structure my life and beliefs based on the moral code of buddhism. Of course, I'm so new to the study, I don't really feel accurate or confident in proclaiming an identity with buddhism.
And where does astrology and tarot fit into this picture? Those activities aren't very spiritual for me -- they're way more psychological and arhcetypal and more about human relations and perception and superconscious. I'm still a firm believer in the superconscious, something I read about when I was 12.
I guess in some ways I'm a humanist, because I give people a lot more credit regarding taking matters into their own hands, as well as controlling the various state of the world. I give people a lot of responsibility and power, not willing to push it off onto a deity by saying things like "we're made that way" or "it's God's will" or "God works in mysterious ways".
So yeah, I don't have a clear concise answer for her. Which leads me to my second problem -- how honest should I be? My experience has been it's not good to tell strong-minded Christians you're a dabbler. Even if they don't immediately proselytize to you on the spot, there's a way where the demeanor changes, and the attitude becomes "well, you better hurry and settle down and find Jesus before the hellfire comes." I don't need such condescension.
For a brief moment I thought about saying I'm a Quaker. Which would pretty much be a lie, since I like many things about Quakers and know a lot about the theology and practice, but I've never actually been to a Friends meeting. But MelRo's sort of a Quaker, right? Can one marry into Quakerism? Does Illinois have common law marriages? If the latter two questions are affirmative, I'm in!
Maybe I'll just be vague and say I'm currently reading and studying different theologies and not go into too much. Maybe I'll just talk more about my past Christian experience. I don't know why I'm so freaked out and feeling no confidence in myself. I hate being this apologetic.
"You didn't mention where you are in the whole scheme of things...Ball's back in your court."
This is problematic for me, for several reasons. The obvious being that I don't really have a shtick. I'm currently a dabbler, when it comes to organized religion. Hell, I'm even a dabbler when it comes to spiritual concepts and theism. The only thing I know for sure (right now) is that I'm agnostic, which basically means not only do I now know about God/the big how and why, but I believe it's impossible for any person to ever fully know. Some people say they're agnostic atheist, which basically means they don't know and they live their life as if there is no God. I think I might be an agnostic buddhist, which basically means I don't know but choose to structure my life and beliefs based on the moral code of buddhism. Of course, I'm so new to the study, I don't really feel accurate or confident in proclaiming an identity with buddhism.
And where does astrology and tarot fit into this picture? Those activities aren't very spiritual for me -- they're way more psychological and arhcetypal and more about human relations and perception and superconscious. I'm still a firm believer in the superconscious, something I read about when I was 12.
I guess in some ways I'm a humanist, because I give people a lot more credit regarding taking matters into their own hands, as well as controlling the various state of the world. I give people a lot of responsibility and power, not willing to push it off onto a deity by saying things like "we're made that way" or "it's God's will" or "God works in mysterious ways".
So yeah, I don't have a clear concise answer for her. Which leads me to my second problem -- how honest should I be? My experience has been it's not good to tell strong-minded Christians you're a dabbler. Even if they don't immediately proselytize to you on the spot, there's a way where the demeanor changes, and the attitude becomes "well, you better hurry and settle down and find Jesus before the hellfire comes." I don't need such condescension.
For a brief moment I thought about saying I'm a Quaker. Which would pretty much be a lie, since I like many things about Quakers and know a lot about the theology and practice, but I've never actually been to a Friends meeting. But MelRo's sort of a Quaker, right? Can one marry into Quakerism? Does Illinois have common law marriages? If the latter two questions are affirmative, I'm in!
Maybe I'll just be vague and say I'm currently reading and studying different theologies and not go into too much. Maybe I'll just talk more about my past Christian experience. I don't know why I'm so freaked out and feeling no confidence in myself. I hate being this apologetic.
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no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 10:42 am (UTC)I don't think you can marry into Quakerism, though. They have to bite you on the neck and suck blood, like vampires. It's true!
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 10:48 am (UTC)I hate how questioning and confusion is equated with doubt and evil. It's virtually impossible to have an sort of real discussion, because I'm always seen as being in cahoots with satan for my views, and trying to bring them down with me for sharing my views with them. What's that Freudian term for self-fulfilling logic? That faux scientific way of reassuring oneself? My brain is mushy. Maybe from all the sin I've been consuming.
no subject
Date: 2002-10-21 01:17 pm (UTC)....
Date: 2002-10-21 11:27 am (UTC)They are tools of human construct (that being time, imagry, candles etc...) for guidence. I think archetypal images, while sometimes divinely inspired (for the person in question) are more a matter of the human collective mind.
Just my 2 cents
Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 11:37 am (UTC)Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 11:50 am (UTC)And what is worldly?
If you, as you have mentioned, are striving to live by buddhist examples, that is far from what I would see as a worldly goal.
Worrying about who created what, and where we go when we die does not make a person more religious, holy or magickal.
Some of us do so to make sense of our exeperiences, true..but I don't think that's the end all of a faith. For me it's personal responsibility and leading a life following some code- be it through the more conventional channels of church, synagog or state, or the more esoteric of personal ethics.
Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 11:58 am (UTC)So I'm not saying that objectively I'm "too worldly" and others are "more godly" -- I'm more thinking about how those arguments are used against me and ways to counter them. Though essentially, all I can say (as you sort of suggest) is "yes, you're right. I do."
A lot of Christian writing on Buddhism talks about them as being narcissistic and self-serving. Such propganda and misinformation in some ways, but in other ways, it's 'true'. People who don't serve Christ are selfish. Buddhists aren't serving Christ. So by their own logic, they're reaffirming there belief.
This boils down to, I think, my newness to discussing faith outside of the same common system. I'm quite familiar with debating varying schools of theology with Christianity, but I'm not sure how to 'defend myself' when I'm completely outside of the circle. Should the situation present itself.
In the end, why worry about this all? I guess it's hard for me to completely let go of my own christian roots and the need to justify my own journey.
And by the way, thanks for your input!
Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 12:25 pm (UTC)Defending yourself is always a tough one. We constantly search for inroads into another person's world view. A sort of 'well I'm kinda like you...but...'
But in trying to find inroads, we can lose ourselves. Yes, explanation is important, but we must keep in mind that some people will refuse to see any religion outside of theirs as valid in any sense. Those people do nothing more than steal precious time.
Thanks for sparking such thought provoking discussion.
Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 12:35 pm (UTC)I agree....but I'm currently wondering, is it possible to still remain friends? I think so -- I mean, I obviously want to have contact with her even though I don't agree with her belief, so it's possible she can do the same.
I'm spoiled by generally surrounding myself with people who believe much of the same things I do. But I'm attracted to the idea of negotiating a friendship with someone outside of many of my realms.
Though who knows -- maybe she's humouring me for the sake of later attempts at conversion.
Re: ....
Date: 2002-10-21 01:27 pm (UTC)The key is, how different (outwardly or otherwise) are you know from when you were origionally friends, and how different are they?
Some folks can agree to disagree, or find 'inroads' to discuss the commonalities between all faiths... some people are stubborn and won't make the effort.
Give her time, if she proves that she is open to other ideas this could be a growing experience for the both of you.