It's not ranting if there's no sarcasm.

[raybear]

I've had two sort of trans-related topics on my mind in the past couple weeks that I haven't gotten around to writing about. I suppose I could post this in some sort of a community, but frankly I'm not interested in generating a discussion among strangers right now, I just want to express my own personal questions/ideas.



1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.

For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.

I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.

Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?

I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.

Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.

2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.

So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?

I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.

This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.

Comments

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

hello bro ;)

i think the answer to the first ones has less to do with bodies and more to do with perceived community. for a lot of folks (myself included) community membership is very important. in the lesbian community, as most bisexuals can tell ya, it's acceptable to date women and people who were women but it's definitely not acceptable to date biomen - even if people accept you it's just not "the same." or if you're part of the queer community, for example, it may be okay to date queer IDed folks - be they queer bio guys, queer trans guys, or dykes, but not date HRC style Gays and Lesbians and not date people who are completely out of the community, i.e. heterosexually identified transmen or heterosexual men. (please note that I know I am generalizing and there are cool people in each community, there are some unspoken, or even sometimes spoken community norms tho)

Some of it might just have to do with bodies though. Honestly most relationships ain't forever, especially when you're talking major changes - be that a move, a sex change, a job change, or a graduation. so if i like someone who is transgender i might not be thinking about what they look like 10 years from now. I don't necessarily find men, including fully transitioned transmen, as attractive as I find female-bodied folk, although I do occasionally - definitely. I find female bodied people attractive, which can included transgender men who are non or pre transitioned. If I was dating a guy that transitioned and I was in love with him and considered him my partner, sure, I'd stay with him - and most people i've been attracted to pre-transition I still find attractive post transition, truth be told. but i think that bodies transition over the long term regardless of gender (gain or lose weight, age, change styles)... so there's no guarantee attraction will remain static with anyone. Also as a non transitioning transgender person I don't see myself in a relationship with a man because I'd be cast in the role of woman no matter how progressive the guy was - because society would do it to me. and that might be tough. not saying insurmountable, by any means. but tough.

and some people are attracted to trans people not as a medium state, but as people who are just gonna be that way and stay that way - non transitioning maybe even non identifiying. someone has to be attracted to me. ;)

as for the bro thing, uh, community again.

as for the dude thing, i just think it's fun to say, OKAY? :)

jessie

[raybear.livejournal.com]

yo, dude.

I totally understand the community thing and agree -- for the most part I don't think I could ever be with a straight woman (or a straight guy!) because most likely there won't be as much in common in the way of community. they wouldn't necessarily understand my queerness, my transness, my bi-ness, my top/bottom-ness, etc. Of course there's always exceptions, and I'm prefectly willing to date those!

But I find it strange that no one talks about the desire or the physical aspects. The fact that you do occasionally find bio-guys and post-trans guys attractive as well as being honest that in general they are the smallest category of attraction shows an element of self awareness as well as legitimate pattern that makes sense.

From conversations I've had with both you and Tara, I'd say you both are also consistent in having an interest in transguys that's more about personality and politics and style and get just as annoyed by macho hetero trans guys as macho hetero bio guys. And that I obviously get, especially since I feel the same way.

But sometimes it is just about physical. And there IS a disconnect when it comes to physical attraction if one claims to only be interested in transguys. I don't mean partnering, which is obviously more complex.

To make it personal for a minute, it's sometimes hard to trust the attraction if the person doesn't seem to like people in the category that I feel I'm in, physically speaking. Maybe that's the real issue (and possibly one that would be present in any relationship where the person's primary orientation is skewed against the category of their partner) -- it doesn't really make me feel good about myself if someone proclaims me to be hot but not the carbon-copy bioguy version of me. I wonder if they're seeing something else that isn't there, something that isn't me.

I can't believe you're leaving town for True Spirit. did I make that horrible of an impression??

later,
dude.

Re:

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

no, true spirit did. ;) seriously though i have a work obligation.

i think the thing about attraction is that it can't necessarily be placed in a vaccuum. if i'm fantasizing, yes, i might fantasize about men and women, women more so than men honestly. but i think for female bodied people especially because there are so many social risks and sexism is involved and etc etc... in real life attraction is not exclusively about bodies.

i guess my question about your personal attraction would be: is there a bio guy equivalent of you? i mean, maybe on the surface. but all the complexities of you? for that matter, is there a trans guy equivalent of you? same questions. phyllis is really attracted to tall muscular butch biomen. and all of her other partners have been skinny as heck. yes, it definitely makes me feel insecure. but she's attracted to me, and she sees me as... well... the truth is ... i don't know if anyone sees me as i really am because how i really am changes. sometimes i want her to be attracted to breasts because i have big ones. sometimes i want her to be attracted to flat chests because i want her to see that in me. and not just physical aspects too. maybe if my identity was more static i'd be more concerned. i dunno. interesting thoughts, thanks for responding.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

in real life attraction is not exclusively about bodies.

true, but then again I am talking more about theory here. I can understand not wanting the reality of dating a bioguy, though eventually some of those problems will also come up with dating a transguy (at some point, usually -- again, I'm talking specifically about transitioning transguys). and if the person I'm with doesn't in theory find at least _some_ bio guys attractive, it will be harder for me to believe they'll find me attractive. does that make sense?

i know that attraction can be part of a larger picture, and usually is (at least in the people i respect!). in fact, one of the best compliments i ever got was from two friends who were talking about how i'm pretty cute but my real charm comes from my personality and i believe the phrase "talk your panties off" was somehow worked in. i'm sure i blushed. but i do like my physical body recognized at times at attractive too. and i don't want to attractive as a guy in spite of my chest anymore than i want to be attractive as a female-bodied person in spite of my hairy chest. i want to be attractive BECAUSE of things, where i feel so much of trans sexuality is this negative space, this elaborate dance of pretened, about seeing things that aren't there or pretending to not see things that are.

i had something else to say, but i forgot. or maybe i got distracted by seeing a colonic being performed on VH1. eek!

hey ray

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

This whole conversation, and every transsensual conversation, makes me feel a bit uncomfortable because I feel like we're picking on primarily lesbian identified women who already get a lot of shit from society about why they don't want to date men. honestly, i feel like what has never been mentioned here is SEXISM: women are just starting to gain a sexual freedom that's defined apart from men and masculinity, and honestly, I feel like this whole conversation is focused on women and criticizing women who won't sleep with men. While unspoken is that gay biomen who sleep with transmen are in their very essence validating someone's masculinity, and that's good. It all bothers me and I've been feeling really angry about it. I guess I feel in general that focusing on trans stuff tends to forget that women are still incredibly oppressed and restricted in our society. Putting women down for their sexual choices is not really the answer. I know I'm not responding directly to you, it's just something I had to get out.

Re: hey ray

[raybear.livejournal.com]

You're absolutely right, and I certainly didn't mean to pick only on lesbian-identifed women, since lord knows I get just as mad (actually more mad) at gay men who won't date transmen because they're not men, or men who date transwomen because of their trans status.

And really, I certainly don't think that women should sleep with men or feel like that have to sleep with biomen in order to be 'allowed' to desire sleeping with transmen. It makes perfect sense to me if someone said to me (male or female), "you know guys can be sexy and cute, but so often they're assholes and annoying and don't recognize and understand my sexuality, whereas transmen seem to suffer less of the male cultural conditioning so I like the whole package."

I learned that I can't look to my sexual partner to define my gender or my sexuality. Making out with a lesbian doesn't make me a dyke anymore than making out with a straight man makes me a woman. I am who I am whether I'm having sex or not. But sometimes I feel like the same process happens to the sexual partner -- they explain their attraction to me because of my transness. And I haven't quite figured out what exactly to feel about that and more importantly, how to deal with it and what it does and doesn't mean.

So I really don't mean to put down anyone for the sexual choices -- I'm just trying to figure it all out as far what the sexual choices mean to me (and mean for the people who choose them -- not because they have to explain themselves to me, but just because there are many people in my life who choose this and I want to understand it more).

Re: hey ray

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

interesting points.

working in the sexual health field, i know that there are a ton of lesbians (70%) who have sex with biomen. but they still self-ID as lesbians. ah, complicated lives.

one more quick thing

[raybear.livejournal.com]

in college I took a class on linguistics and sexuality (basically language queer people use) and the most fascinating article to me was a study of bisexual women and lesbian women and how they had nearly the same amount (in ratios) of sex with both men and women. In some cases, lesbians were having more sex with men than bisexual women. It was an intriguing (and early) lesson in differences between identity and behavior.

Re: hey ray

[raybear.livejournal.com]

p.s. thanks for saying this -- to remind myself and anyone else who happens to be reading this.

Negative Space

[sean7232.livejournal.com]

"i want to be attractive BECAUSE of things, where i feel so much of trans sexuality is this negative space, this elaborate dance of pretened, about seeing things that aren't there or pretending to not see things that are."

I think that in alot of ways transpeople become socialized (especially those who come from a conservative medicalized standpoint) to negotiate the idiosyncracies of your so accurately stated negative space. Like, even if we know there are people who do not see their body in terms of incomplete-complete female-male-- without the explicitness that you desire in relation to attraction--it's not always clear whether the person wants you to look past their chest, too not see what is there, or to see what is not there.

I've thought about this alot because I've gotten to the point where I want my cunt to be appreciated for what it is (i think i said this already but it is somewhat affirming to state this again), and I don't have any kind of real incongruence or tension inherent to my genitals. My real curiousity is whether, if I had not had the financial resources to get top surgery less than a year after starting T, there would have been a similar acceptance of my chest. I mean, it's not inconceivable that since I knew the surgery date was forthcoming, there was a certain degree of cognitive restructuing that needed to be done. I had to look past them because they would soon be gone--and at that point, I was deeply ashamed and afraid to be freakish (and I use this term only because it was a repetitive self-statement during that time period--not to imply any sort of intellectual binary acceptance)...

Re: Negative Space

[danielray.livejournal.com]

interestingly, i am far more prone to view my chest as negative space than my genitals... i don't have the financial wherewithal to get top surgery any time soon, but i do frequently imagine them gone. i am not particularly interested in coming to peace with my chest as it is. a further complication is that, in the post-one-year-on-t phase there is a significant visibility to my pecs and chest contour, so it's kind of like there are 2 conflicting things going on. so, for me, it's not *just* about negative space, but some weird mix of negative and positive space...

otoh, i am significantly invested in coming to peace with my genitals as they are and dealing with them in positive existence rather than in terms of what they aren't. there's some incongruence and tension there, but it is tension i want to overcome. whereas with my chest, it is something i want to surgically resolve...

Re: Negative Space

[sean7232.livejournal.com]

yes, that's where I was at before I had surgery as well, i just have this knack for re-evaluating past decisions...this is problematic since my experience contains variables that were not previously present