It's not ranting if there's no sarcasm.

[raybear]

I've had two sort of trans-related topics on my mind in the past couple weeks that I haven't gotten around to writing about. I suppose I could post this in some sort of a community, but frankly I'm not interested in generating a discussion among strangers right now, I just want to express my own personal questions/ideas.



1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.

For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.

I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.

Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?

I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.

Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.

2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.

So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?

I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.

This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.

Comments

[uncensoredqueer.livejournal.com]

Ray-Brother-Dude-
hehe. Just kidding.
I don't really "get" the whole brother thing either, really.
Eh...i guess nothing else to comment on it but i don't really get it.
Miss you.
ALex

[danielray.livejournal.com]

2. part of it is that the "brother" thing, traditionally, has been used more as an expression of solidarity (we're in the same boat) than necessarily intimacy (we know each other even though we don't). like "comrade."

but in the false-intimacy world of the net, that line can become blurred.

1. i've just decided that people who want to date trans-but-not-bio don't actually want to date me, either. and then it's not my problem.

Hm..

[trooper6.livejournal.com]

pt. 1) Interesting. Your observations seem to be about people that date pre-t/pre-op T-guys but wouldn't date bio guys. What about folks who only want to date post-t/post-op T-guys and no one else? (no bio guys, no women of any stripes?) I think desire is such a funny topic. I wonder what it's all about.

pt. 2) Bro, what do you you mean I don't know you as much as I thought...and that we don't have an intimate relationship? I mean, I thought we were married next month, dude! :)

Re: Hm..

[kisha.livejournal.com]

1. It's not my place to answer the 'bro' thing, so i'll move on.
2. I've known quite a few self-identified lesbians who swear up and down they'll never date a man. But they'll date a trans man in a heartbeat. For some reason, that has never sat well with me. I kind of question how they really view trans men, since they claim they would never date a man. I dunno. Maybe it's not fair for me to judge. Hell, people can date whoever the hell they want. So whatever.
I've dated a trans man in the past, and I'm currently with a non-trans man.
To me, a man is a man is a man. They all drive me crazy.

Re: Hm..

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I think I run into this phenomenon more with people wanting to date pre-t/pre-op trans guys -- I don't see it as often with people only want dating trans guys that have physically transitioned. Though I don't doubt it exists.

Desire is strange. Sort of why I was thinking about this topic -- I really wasn't trying to be accusatory towards anyone's taste, I just genuinely wondered what's up with people not being bisexual. Geez, people.

Hey, if we're getting married, don't call me 'bro'. I'm not into that. But maybe 'daddy'. ;)

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

hello bro ;)

i think the answer to the first ones has less to do with bodies and more to do with perceived community. for a lot of folks (myself included) community membership is very important. in the lesbian community, as most bisexuals can tell ya, it's acceptable to date women and people who were women but it's definitely not acceptable to date biomen - even if people accept you it's just not "the same." or if you're part of the queer community, for example, it may be okay to date queer IDed folks - be they queer bio guys, queer trans guys, or dykes, but not date HRC style Gays and Lesbians and not date people who are completely out of the community, i.e. heterosexually identified transmen or heterosexual men. (please note that I know I am generalizing and there are cool people in each community, there are some unspoken, or even sometimes spoken community norms tho)

Some of it might just have to do with bodies though. Honestly most relationships ain't forever, especially when you're talking major changes - be that a move, a sex change, a job change, or a graduation. so if i like someone who is transgender i might not be thinking about what they look like 10 years from now. I don't necessarily find men, including fully transitioned transmen, as attractive as I find female-bodied folk, although I do occasionally - definitely. I find female bodied people attractive, which can included transgender men who are non or pre transitioned. If I was dating a guy that transitioned and I was in love with him and considered him my partner, sure, I'd stay with him - and most people i've been attracted to pre-transition I still find attractive post transition, truth be told. but i think that bodies transition over the long term regardless of gender (gain or lose weight, age, change styles)... so there's no guarantee attraction will remain static with anyone. Also as a non transitioning transgender person I don't see myself in a relationship with a man because I'd be cast in the role of woman no matter how progressive the guy was - because society would do it to me. and that might be tough. not saying insurmountable, by any means. but tough.

and some people are attracted to trans people not as a medium state, but as people who are just gonna be that way and stay that way - non transitioning maybe even non identifiying. someone has to be attracted to me. ;)

as for the bro thing, uh, community again.

as for the dude thing, i just think it's fun to say, OKAY? :)

jessie

[raybear.livejournal.com]

yo, dude.

I totally understand the community thing and agree -- for the most part I don't think I could ever be with a straight woman (or a straight guy!) because most likely there won't be as much in common in the way of community. they wouldn't necessarily understand my queerness, my transness, my bi-ness, my top/bottom-ness, etc. Of course there's always exceptions, and I'm prefectly willing to date those!

But I find it strange that no one talks about the desire or the physical aspects. The fact that you do occasionally find bio-guys and post-trans guys attractive as well as being honest that in general they are the smallest category of attraction shows an element of self awareness as well as legitimate pattern that makes sense.

From conversations I've had with both you and Tara, I'd say you both are also consistent in having an interest in transguys that's more about personality and politics and style and get just as annoyed by macho hetero trans guys as macho hetero bio guys. And that I obviously get, especially since I feel the same way.

But sometimes it is just about physical. And there IS a disconnect when it comes to physical attraction if one claims to only be interested in transguys. I don't mean partnering, which is obviously more complex.

To make it personal for a minute, it's sometimes hard to trust the attraction if the person doesn't seem to like people in the category that I feel I'm in, physically speaking. Maybe that's the real issue (and possibly one that would be present in any relationship where the person's primary orientation is skewed against the category of their partner) -- it doesn't really make me feel good about myself if someone proclaims me to be hot but not the carbon-copy bioguy version of me. I wonder if they're seeing something else that isn't there, something that isn't me.

I can't believe you're leaving town for True Spirit. did I make that horrible of an impression??

later,
dude.

[sean7232.livejournal.com]

Hello my distant internet acquaintance with whom I once had a fantacy friendship...you rock! (in a nondude, nonbrotherly way)

1. I like men, women, bio or not. Personally, I am disconcerted by FT? transpeople that still have a chest. Not in an intellectual way, but it turns me off, probably because I internalized all that shit in my own body. As far as lesbians who will have sex with transmen and not biomen, it must be a phallic issue. After all, most transmen still have cunts (with added phallic benefits). At the beginning, I didn't want to deal with that, but now, I could understand who a lesbian might still want to be with me. For some people, attraction is gender based, but for others, it really centers around genitals. Perhaps one day, there will be a new classification of sexual orientations for lesbians who ID as attracted to both geners, but only one set of genitals. I hope I explained this well.

2. Projections are indeed a powerful force in many lives. I am guilty of dude and brother, although I use it less and less as I come to the realization that someone's trans status is not sufficient for a deep connection.

Wait, does this count as initiating discussion among strangers? Sorry, I did invite you over that once but then I realized you were dealing with invites from people you actually knew and not strange lurkers in rural areas...

good point...

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

desire is a funny thing...

[raybear.livejournal.com]

you're back! good to see you.

and I would have visited you if I'd had better transportation! I was mostly stuck in the city. But in general I'm all about strange lurkers in rural areas. It's half my friends page. :P

are you going to True Spirit this year? we could totally hang, dude! ha.

my $0.02

[bias-cut.livejournal.com]

i definitely agree with jessie g. on her points about wanting to date people who belong to your community -- we're more likely to have shared values and norms, which makes me more likely to be interested in them and them in me. i'd also like to add that one of my key requirements for a partner (sexual, long-term, short-term, whatever) is that they understand, embrace, and are attracted to my femme identity. this is much more likely to happen with a trans guy than with a bio-guy. finally, in my experience, the percentage of smart, politically conscious, queer-positive, fat-positive, interesting, and attractive transguys is much higher than that of bio-men

Re: my $0.02

[raybear.livejournal.com]

they understand, embrace, and are attracted to my femme identity. this is much more likely to happen with a trans guy than with a bio-guy. finally, in my experience, the percentage of smart, politically conscious, queer-positive, fat-positive, interesting, and attractive transguys is much higher than that of bio-men


I don't disagree with these statements at all....I think my disconnect on the issue has more to do with physical desire, or desire of physical bodies, if that makes sense. So, if you did find a bio-guy with all the above qualifications, would you date/fuck/partner with him? I mean, assuming there was chemistry and whatnot. And if not, why not? (for you at least, not asking you to speak for everyone or anyone else)

I guess I just feel like people don't speak as explicitly about the physicality of being trans and desire. It's talked about mostly in the context of what's being ignored (e.g. lack of biological appendage) or compensated for (e.g. binding to prevent showing of chest), but not about what's actually there and how it's similiar and different from non-trans bodies.

[sharkysmachine.livejournal.com]

For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as.

that totally grosses me out. i'm sorry but it does. i know plenty of non trans men [hell i've fucked them all] who've loved my femme and understood me. actually the only people who don't are in the "community". they seem to be heavily interested in labels and stuff.

i always wonder if it's invalidating to say something like "i only date____ but not____" in reference to trans issues. in either direction.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

i know plenty of non trans men [hell i've fucked them all] who've loved my femme

that's cause you date fags, and fags love a femme. like me.

[sebjames.livejournal.com]

i think the "bro" and "dude" shit is transguys thinking that's how nontrans guys talk to each other. Maybe in high school, but certainly that's not how I talk to my male friends.

and the I'd date a nontransguy crap is just ridiculous. I can't even hardly talk about it. Obviously, they just see a girl or a vagina and not a man.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

i think the "bro" and "dude" shit is transguys thinking that's how nontrans guys talk to each other.


HA!!

hmm

[brothernumber3.livejournal.com]

the brother thing, i think it is people trying to reach out who feel otherwise lonely and/or community-less more than it is an assumption about them knowing you or your experience just because of a small similarity in our lives. lj is an interesting animal, and for some it is the only place where they "know" other transmen.

i use the term brother very freely, but only with certain people, but that is part of my cultural background and upbringing. and i feel like the term is very much mine anyway.


the trans-but-not-bio thing.

i've had some varied experience and wanted to throw out a particular friend of mine to see what you think. so this guy is queer, very out queer and has only been with men his entire life, never even kissed a girl, but he's not into dick. (personally, i don't understand how one can not be into dick, but that's me, i'm a dick hound). anyway, so he and i get together over a year ago after much flirting and now he exclusively dates transmen. i'm not sure if he would actually say he won't date bioguys anymore, but it's pretty much the case. so his orientation is compatible but he doesn't date bio-guys. he's just my weird test case for you. i love him though and i think he has a lot of issues around being a bio guy that don't let him appreciate other biomen.

attraction is a bizarre thing. i can't say anything universally squicks me about the trans-but-not-bio, it's definitely a case by case basis. but i guess it is suspect nonetheless. i dunno. i've been with so many people who's attraction laundry list i was completely outside of that i've sort of given up on it. though i still make my own generalizations, though mostly i make them about straight women. the idea of being with a straight woman scares me because most queer women have to do a great deal of figuring shit out to come out alive that i feel like straight women are not encouraged to do. and i don't know if i could handle having to play the part that straight men are supposed to play in a straight relationship.

Re: hmm

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean to imply I hate all use of the words bro and brother. I think I meant more the overuse of the word among near strangers online. And I understand wanting to express to someone online 'hey, thanks for being around it makes me feel less alone even though ive never met you in person'. For the most part it's a minor pet peeve. Maybe part of it comes from my familiarity of 'brother' with more of a cultural context, i.e. as a term of endearment between men of color, so I'm not going to automatically say it since I'm used to it not necessarily applying to me. I mean, I'm not saying that any race has the market on the word 'brother' -- I'm more talking about my own personal experience with hearing the word thrown around.

your friend....is an interesting case. and frankly i have less of a squick problem with it, even if i would question his motivations for such desires and attractions. i think the part that trips me up in the scenario I described is transpeople being lumped into the dating pool with the sex they came from, rather than the sex they're transitioning to, i.e. I date women and transmen, or I date men and transwomen.

i'm really not talking about deep attraction either. i'm certainly someone who can be madly in lust with a person physical appearance, then they open their mouth and say some sort of isht and they become absolutely unattractive to me in a moment. i'm more talking about purely on the physical level.

sometimes the idea of being a straight man with a straight woman seems so strangely....familiar and easy. which is weird since i've never done it. but i guess it's just from being fed to me for twenty-odd years. i'm sure the real thing is much harder and has it's own set of issues, hence the proliferation of 'men are from mars, women are from venus' type books and ideas.

i just remembered something else

[brothernumber3.livejournal.com]

this is actually not at all to do with the trans-but-not-bio, but more just attraction in general.

what about people who don't know a person's trans status?

say like i've fucked more than a couple straight guys who are exclusively attracted to women, found themselves attracted to me as a man prior to me coming out to them as trans. so, they're obviously confused by their attraction to me (being that they've known they were straight for however long) then i complicate it for them by saying, heh, i don't have a dick. i wonder, does it make their attraction to me make more sense in their head or less? i'm careful about who i sleep with and i'm highly aware of how i feel like i'm being taken/treated. it's all so complicated!

Re: i just remembered something else

[raybear.livejournal.com]

what about people who don't know a person's trans status?

this is an interesting question and is sort of the other side of the coin of what i'm thinking about. in this case, say a gay man finds me attractive and we start going at it, and then i reveal that i'm trans. he's still attracted to me, but now he's realizing my body is different from what has previously made him hard, and yet, he's still hard. so he starts to think about his own ideas of what's attractive and maybe realizes it's not related to just dick or whatever.

what i'm wondering is, if someone is okay with dating a transman, would it then be possible for them to open up and be attracted to a bioguy? i don't even mean date or marry or whatever. i mean just saying, hey, that boy is cute and i wouldn't mind making out with him because he's cute and i don't care what's in his pants and whether it's made of silicone or flesh.

it is complicated, but i guess i feel like people aren't explicit enough for my taste. i don't want people to talk about being attracted to transmen because they are more sensitive and more open to the female experience'. i want someone to say 'i like transmen because i want to suck on their hairy fingers and wrap my arms around their broad shoulders'.

[hissyfit.livejournal.com]

i id as a dyke. not a lesbian, necessarily (though i use that word in situations during which it may be inappropriate to say dyke), and not a femme. not bisexual. not pansexual or polysexual or any of those other made-up words that may more rightly apply to me. i'm a dyke. however, i've been told that i'm a poor quality dyke because i love the dick. *shrug* it's the truth. i date women, female-bodied genderqueers and transmen primarily. i would consider dating a transwoman, should the situation arise. i would consider for a longer period of time dating a bioguy. i know that this makes some people (especially the m2m transmen) cringe, but i really appreciate people who come from the female experience. that early female socialization and understanding what it's like to live as a woman in this society is important to me. i don't usually feel as though i can totally trust people who haven't had that experience to value and understand me as fully as i deserve. and that's not to say that people who DO come from that experience necessarily WILL understand and value me as a person the way i feel as though i ought to be understood and valued, but there's a lot better chance thereof. if that makes any sense. (i've been reading faulkner lately.)

[raybear.livejournal.com]

i can appreciate that, especially in the context of a longterm partnership, but i'm sort of talking more about just physical appearances and bodies. someone who has no appreciation for men as sexual attractive beings, but then claims transmen are hot. you don't strike me as this type of person -- probably because of your inner fag.

p.s. i don't think loving dick makes your a bad dyke. they're just jealous you can enjoy the best of both genital worlds (even if one is silicone or leather).

nobody believes i'm bisexual.

[wearemany.livejournal.com]

or, uh, something like that. can i have a sticker that says "dude, i'm just a dyke trying to get by" if i smile real pretty and bat my eyes?

two thoughts (maybe three). a thing i totally forgot to mention while you were here was how one attendee of last year's soiree who wasn't invited back this time is a bi-identified dyke who i can only otherwise characterize as a trannyhawk. she has this incredibly fetishized idea of ftms, and while she's also attracted to bioguys, the last conversation i had with her on the subject left such a bad taste in my mouth that i couldn't quite figure out what else to say.

maybe it's because (point 2) i have incredibly high standards for who i want to fuck and even higher for those i'd like to have a long conversation with, but at some point i have realized that the only consistent point of attraction i feel, across genders and sexualities, is to people so smart they blow my mind.

that and, well. power. i am attracted to cocky, confident biomen (hell, people generally) who walk into a room like they own it, though i think it's only my queer determination to be the girl they know who challenges that to their face that creates a real spark. i don't relate to those men like most women they know do (which generally either gets me labeled a dyke or a slut, just because i don't fit). it's not a thing i would think of to say about myself, but it's probably clear to everyone else in my life that i'm more comfortable being my usual aggressive self around men -- look at what i do for a living, the offices where i work, the conversations i have. maybe it's just attraction by proximity? finding women, straight or not, who aren't scared of my ability to be myself is more of a challenge -- both to my sex life, because i think i'm frankly more comfortable with my body around people whose bodies resemble it (not that being uncomfortable isn't its own kind of sexy), and to my wimmin-lovin'-raised self, the one who rolls her eyes at the idea of a sisterhood but will still profess that women are kind of the coolest thing ever.

uh, was that an answer? cocky men=hot, no matter where the cock came from. cocky women=hot, but in my experience far more rare than cocky men. you=dude with lots of cool, articulate friends. me=missing you like rain.

Re: nobody believes i'm bisexual.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I remember times in college when I was genuinely surprised that all the lesbians around had a hard time finding at least SOME guys attractive. It seemed so strange to me. I also remember joking around with Michelle&Becky (and possibly Karen) and how gay we were and I said something like "I'm so queer I'd have sex with men!" and the room got a little silent. Um, yeah, there were no amen's on that comment.

miss you much like janet, and THIS weekend. yes. this weekend we will chat.

the physical stuff

[danielray.livejournal.com]

maybe the thing is that, actually, the physical stuff *isn't* what's all that important?

there's probably a lot of people who one can be simply physically attracted to. and many fewer people who one would want to be in a long-term relationship with. and some number in between with whom one would like to have sex once or a few times.

i think lots of people kind of pre-edit what they read as attraction. so i might be into hairy fingers and broad shoulders, say, but before i read 'hairy fingers and broad shoulders' as attractive, i apply some potentially non-physical tests to determine if i'm even going to pay notice these physically attractive traits. say, for example: do those hairy fingers and broad shoulders belong to a person who is of a sex that (for various reasons) is my preferred sex? are those hairy fingers and broad shoulders on someone who displays markers of non-physical traits i find attractive?: a mohawk to indicate a punk esthetic, a bag full o' books to indicate a level of intellectualism.

after a person passes my pre-edits (which i can often only explain *not* in terms of bodies but which have real effects to how my body and mind respond to that person), then yeah: look at that hottie with the hairy fingers and broad shoulders!

or vice versa: i might not be so into the mohawked, book-lugging kid with the skinny shoulders and hairless fingers, even if they fit into my social attractiveness criteria.

Re: the physical stuff

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

good insight!

her baby's queer for all that jazz

[milosh.livejournal.com]

I would just like to say that I was about to go to bed 40 minutes ago, but instead started reading this post and its comments, and, well, now, look what time it is!! ay, dios mio!!

that's all.

~myles, who will now have "nice" dreams, and who is also quite excited to see you in a few weeks (housing? do we need to discuss?)

Re: her baby's queer for all that jazz

[raybear.livejournal.com]

yes, let's chat about housing. then we can also chat about other things, even if only for a few minutes. you can call me at work today, or i'll call you over the weekend.