It's not ranting if there's no sarcasm.
Jan. 22nd, 2003 01:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
raybearI've had two sort of trans-related topics on my mind in the past couple weeks that I haven't gotten around to writing about. I suppose I could post this in some sort of a community, but frankly I'm not interested in generating a discussion among strangers right now, I just want to express my own personal questions/ideas.
1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.
For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.
I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.
Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?
I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.
Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.
2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.
So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?
I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.
This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.
1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.
For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.
I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.
Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?
I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.
Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.
2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.
So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?
I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.
This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.
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Re: hmm
Date: 2003-01-22 09:47 pm (UTC)your friend....is an interesting case. and frankly i have less of a squick problem with it, even if i would question his motivations for such desires and attractions. i think the part that trips me up in the scenario I described is transpeople being lumped into the dating pool with the sex they came from, rather than the sex they're transitioning to, i.e. I date women and transmen, or I date men and transwomen.
i'm really not talking about deep attraction either. i'm certainly someone who can be madly in lust with a person physical appearance, then they open their mouth and say some sort of isht and they become absolutely unattractive to me in a moment. i'm more talking about purely on the physical level.
sometimes the idea of being a straight man with a straight woman seems so strangely....familiar and easy. which is weird since i've never done it. but i guess it's just from being fed to me for twenty-odd years. i'm sure the real thing is much harder and has it's own set of issues, hence the proliferation of 'men are from mars, women are from venus' type books and ideas.
Re: hmm
Date: 2003-01-23 07:01 am (UTC)you have a sexy brain. i likes the way you think.
Re: hmm
Date: 2003-01-23 09:06 am (UTC)