It's not ranting if there's no sarcasm.
Jan. 22nd, 2003 01:15 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
raybearI've had two sort of trans-related topics on my mind in the past couple weeks that I haven't gotten around to writing about. I suppose I could post this in some sort of a community, but frankly I'm not interested in generating a discussion among strangers right now, I just want to express my own personal questions/ideas.
1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.
For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.
I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.
Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?
I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.
Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.
2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.
So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?
I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.
This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.
1. Let me preface this by saying, my personal experience with this has been with women, but I'm sure it's not an exclusive phenomenon. So I'll try and couch it in neutral terms.
For some reason lately I've been bothered by people who seem extremely interested trans people but have zero interest in bio people of the gender the trans person identifies as. In other words, "I like transguys but not bioguys". Wait, wait, wait, let me finish. Let me tell you who I'm NOT talking about. I'm not talking about people who primarily identify as one category, but then they're current partner transitions and they decided to stay with said partner even if their gender no longer fits in with their general orientation. I understand that relationships and love defy sexual categories and can supercede any general desires. I might not even be talking about people who might be attracted to the bio-sexed person but generally don't get into relationships with them because of cultural and societal standards (e.g. the queer woman who doesn't have much long-term success with finding open-minded bio men). I'm also not talking about genderqueer people, because I believe that to be a different experience -- this is more about trans people who choose to physically transition.
I guess what I am talking about are people who would never never never never ever imagine having sex or admitting desire for bio-sexed people (I made that word up) but then actively pursue trans-sexed people of the same category.
Here's my issue. What's going to happen when this person transitions? What happens when they start embodying the characteristics of the sex that you previously found unattractive? Do they just assume their emotional connection will help them learn to appreciate and be attracted to this other sex?
I'm not saying there's something wrong with finding someone attractive, no matter what state of transition they're in. I guess it seems to problematic to be attracted to this nebulous state of physical being. There are certainly trans people I've been attracted to who were pre-hormones or pre-surgery, but usually I was still attracted to them as they transitioned (or even anticipating transition). Probably because I'm genuinely attracted to men and women, trans or not. So this makes me wonder about people who aren't attracted to both (or all, since both implies two...). How exactly does it play out? I really do want to know.
Don't worry, I get upset about people who date bio but not trans, no matter what state of physical transition has occurred, and this seems to make sense to people and most people agree that it's problematic. But the converse seems to happen a lot, and no one really talks about in realistic terms with honesty about the causes and realities.
2. Maybe I'm just cynical. I mean, yeah, sure I believe in a very general sense about the 'brotherhood of man' but for the most part it would only come up if I was jettisoned off the planet with only a small number of other humans and we were forced to bond over being human beings in the midst of aliens. I also believe in community of the same struggle and being in the trenches and being connected. But maybe because I've been in the queer community long, I know that just because someone's gay, they aren't my family especially since the only thing we might have in common is that we're gay. And I've learned that really isn't much.
So here's my question -- why are transguys so into calling each other bro and brother (and by proxy, the excessive use of 'dude')?
I hate the feeling of sort of forced immediate intimacy when someone says it. I know it comes from a place of wanting to show connection and sympathy and possibly even validating the other person's masculinity.
This seems so lame and minor, but it really bothers me, perhaps because it taps into one of my major pet peeves: people believing they know me well when they don't know. I've probably even been guilty of committing the crime, since it's so rampant on any listserv or livejournal community. I just feel like there's too much of a problem with false intimacy online anyway (people falling in love over e-mails when really it's a fantasy built up in our minds, where we fill numerous details into the gaping hole of ignorace about the other person), and I've fallen victim to it before so I'm especially wary.
But I'm not your brother. Well, I might be, but only time and friendship will tell that fact, not just my trans status.
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the physical stuff
Date: 2003-01-23 03:43 pm (UTC)there's probably a lot of people who one can be simply physically attracted to. and many fewer people who one would want to be in a long-term relationship with. and some number in between with whom one would like to have sex once or a few times.
i think lots of people kind of pre-edit what they read as attraction. so i might be into hairy fingers and broad shoulders, say, but before i read 'hairy fingers and broad shoulders' as attractive, i apply some potentially non-physical tests to determine if i'm even going to pay notice these physically attractive traits. say, for example: do those hairy fingers and broad shoulders belong to a person who is of a sex that (for various reasons) is my preferred sex? are those hairy fingers and broad shoulders on someone who displays markers of non-physical traits i find attractive?: a mohawk to indicate a punk esthetic, a bag full o' books to indicate a level of intellectualism.
after a person passes my pre-edits (which i can often only explain *not* in terms of bodies but which have real effects to how my body and mind respond to that person), then yeah: look at that hottie with the hairy fingers and broad shoulders!
or vice versa: i might not be so into the mohawked, book-lugging kid with the skinny shoulders and hairless fingers, even if they fit into my social attractiveness criteria.
Re: the physical stuff
Date: 2003-01-24 08:34 am (UTC)Re: the physical stuff
Date: 2003-01-24 09:22 am (UTC)the problem, for me, is when people talk about who they date and who they're attracted and they don't talk as much about intangibles and instead say "i date _____ & ______". i mean, obviously they aren't going to be attracted to EVERY person in the category, whether it's every woman or every transguy. but there's a way that language indicates such, and also implies commonality between the two. (exception to this is saying "i date men and women" which just implies you're a slut and/or indecisive.)
for the most part, i have a hard time when people have any "types" that they will repeatedly date no matter what other more important characteristics are lacking. i run into this phenomena a LOT with straight guys, who seem to have less of a problem of still being attracted to women they find annoying or even just mismatched. i mean, there are certainly people i've wanted to have sex with solely based on a magazine photo (and my brain filling in the details). but if i read the interview and they say problematic things, i no longer see the picture as hot anymore. in fact, i might even be repulsed about the idea of having sex with them.
my initial impetus for this topic was wanting a more critical and explicit interpretation of sexual choices and what they mean for the person desiring and the person being desired.
we all desire and think problematic things. for example, i've been attracted to (and have fantasized about) transwomen who are very femme and also pre-op. i hate to admit it or even think about it for too long, because there's such fetishization of 'chicks with dicks' and other horrible types of objectification. I can say that my attraction comes from a different place, since I'm trans and sensitive and aware and whatnot, and maybe this is true but I also need to realize the larger cultural and social ramifications of my attraction, or more accurately the pursuit of the attraction, since the desire and fantasy in and of itself isn't hurting or helping anyone outside of myself.
so i'm not saying people should or shouldn't feel a certain desire and want to act on it. far be it from me to say that to ANYone. but i'm asking -- do people who only date trans___ and not bio____ (or vice versa) think about the things i mentioned above too? and how have they rectified it for themselves (assuming they even view it as problematic)?
Re: the physical stuff
Date: 2003-01-24 12:43 pm (UTC)one could say that (medically transitioning) transpeople share some physical traits with members of the sex with which they identify (secondary sex characteristics), and also some physical traits with members of the sex with which they were born (genitals unless surgically modified, some markers like height and size of extremities).
so maybe the simple thing is that people who date women and transmen or men and transwomen are seeing and responding to physical traits that are present in both women and transmen, or both men and transwomen.
which isn't so much socially acceptable. but physically *is* there.