qualifying seems to be the action of the day -- justaboi

[raybear]

I started this yesterday and finished it today. Longest LJ entry ever. Here's the breakdown, including numbers for those who haven't checked the stats on my recent poll.

First question: How many friends/close acquaintances in your life are people of color?
Almost half of folks answered "3-5". One-fifth of people said "0-2" -- I intentionally put people who knew no people of color with people who had one or two friends, because I don't think having a token is much different than having none -- either way it's pretty limited daily exposure to relationships with non-white people.
More than a quarter answered "too many to count", but almost half of those people are people of color.

Second question: How many black people have been in your house?
This question was inspired by a joke in "Kings of Comedy": If you can't count the number of black people who've been in your house, than you're racist.
(Of course, that's sort of a trick statement, since most everyone is racist.) But the point of the question is to make people pay attention -- I know some people will say "I don't see color and I don't pay attention to people's race" but those are usually the folks who's only black visitor was the cable guy.
Interestingly enough, the vote was split very differently from the first question: about a third said "0-2" and a third said "too many to count". The other third was split pretty evenly between "3-5" and "6-10". For people who qualified their answer by saying they've had few people over period, let me ask the follow up question -- what's the percentage of non-white people who've been in your house?

Third and fourth question: Use of lingo and number of hip-hop albums.
About a third of people straight up said "no" they don't use such slang (which is an unintentional lie in some case, because I've SEEN the words in your livejournal!), but 2/3 of of y'all own less than 10 albums. And skipping ahead a question, some of the same people say they use the n-word with the "a" ending. I'm NOT saying that if you own every 2pac and Biggie bootleg you're 'qualified' to talk the talk -- I just think there are some interesting correlations.

Fifth Question: Sitting next to the black guy on the bus.
Almost half admitted to choosing the seat next to the teenager to prove a point. Thanks for letting me know I'm not alone, even if I'm slightly ashamed. But this poll isn't about shaming anyone -- I just wanted honesty. Almost a one-fifth said they would sit next to the white woman -- again, I appreciate folks answering honestly and I'm glad that people are aware of their actions. Over one-third of the pollers claimed to have no idea what I was talking about. Somehow I find this hard to believe. My purpose for this question was not to see if people would choose "white or black" -- that's pretty much already been studied and the results show that EVERYONE unconsciously picks white people as the standard for normal, average, and beautiful, due to the mass cultural conditioning through the media, history books, etc. etc. This question was more about people realizing that they have this instinct, and whether they intentionally act against it. Now, the whole motivation of "proving a point" is sort of the question of white liberal guilt thrown in for good measure. But I don't necessarily think it's a horribly evil thing to do -- go against the deeply buried instincts. Many folks claim their motivation is to avoid teenagers, and I don't doubt that's a factor, but I think it's a conscious factor -- we weren't taught to hate/fear/loathe teenagers from a young age. With the question, I wanted to know if people ever confront the unconscious fears on a daily or weekly basis. I mean, even if you would always sit next to the white woman, at least be aware that you're always sitting next to the white woman and don't pretend it's a happy accident or coincidence.

Sixth question: A white person is claiming to not own any opinions on race because they're from a town/area with virtually no non-white people. How would you place them as a white person?

Okay, I know I said there are no "right answers", but I think I lied. I think the last answer is the most accurate in general. All white people are racist. (Some say all people are racist, but I'm not qualified to make that statement at this time, so I won't.) I don't think being from an all-white area necessarily makes you more or less so - that can only be determined on a case by case basis. But 70% of people agreed with me and chose the same answer.

Seventh question: The N-word.

Answers were pretty spread out across the board, with more people leaning towards the "rap lyrics" quoting. I must say, I'm quite surprised that people actually chose the answer "no, never ever ever ever ever". I'm sure intentions were good, but I can't help but wonder if there's perhaps a strong element of denial.

Thanks for everyone who answered. I will conclude my unofficial analysis with a story of my own personal relationship with "the n-word".


For those who don't know, I'm from the South. My parents are from a smallish town in southern Mississippi and I've never heard them say the word ever. But other people in my family have, I'm sure. I can barely remember instances from early childhood, but no specific.

I honestly have no idea when/where I first learned it's meaning, but I always knew it was wrong to say. When I got to middle school, I first started to get slightly de-sensitized because peers would say it all the time to other black students. I'm sure there might have been incidents of white students being down and using it, but I can't remember any ramificiations. I do remember the birth of the term "whigga", which were white students who hung out mostly with black students and "dressed like a black person". I never liked that word because I didn't like the original word -- by the time I was 13 it was already ingrained in me that it was okay for black people to use it but never never never for white people.

I have no memory of saying it as a child, but I'm sure it happened at least once. Every kid says it once. Every kid says every new word once.

In college I took classes on reclamation of language, specifically how it relates to fag and dyke. I learn about the power of the n-word and read about why people use it and why people still loathe and push for abolishing it's use in all forms. I can understand and relate to both sides, but I learn to have no opinion -- it's not my fight and I have no right to say how non-white people should use it. But I believe that no white person should say it. Ever. I mean, if it's in the context of a personal conversation and there's an understood agreement between the white and black person, whatever, that's fine (though I can't help but think there are still power dynamics not being adressed). In reality, I would say it might be more okay to say it with the "er" ending in the context of an academic setting or discussion of the word itself, but even if you're reading a letter to the editor to The Source aloud to your buddies, don't say it. It's not meant for you. Can you maybe handle this? That there's something off-limits to a white person?

But that doesn't mean I'm not human.

I've said the word somewhat recently. When I wasn't alone. In fact, Damon was in the room. I quoted a rap lyric while trashtalking during a video game, and in the heat of the moment, didn't edit it but quoted exactly like the song. I felt pretty embarassed and upset with myself. Obviously. I apologized profusely to Damon, and he was like "hey, as long as you realized that you said it.....and don't do it again". I tried not to overdo it with my apologies, for fear of making him the recipient of all my white confessions, as some way of absolving myself. I made a joke about needing to put in some wholesome music and that I've been listening to too much 'hardcore' stuff. This happened about 2 1/2 years ago.

For a week the word floated in my head. I rolled it around in my mouth, felt it on my teeth and tongue. I sometimes whispered it privately, trying to figure out why it had actually slipped out of the locked cage in my mind. I thought about how I hear the word hundreds of times on a given day if I'm listening to lots of hip hop . I started to fear that the music had influenced me, had corrupted me, that Tipper was right.

But it was a human reaction. Anything that's been repressed for so long is bound to spring out eventually. My girlfriend at the time made me angry, because she seemed to shocked and appalled by my actions, claiming that she works everyday at firing people for using such language. I was put off by her lack of self-analysis, here inability to see her own potential to do what I did. I'm certainly not proud or glad that I used it as an epithet, even if it was towards an alien of indeterminent race on a video game, but the learning experience has been invaluable. It knocked me off my pedestal, shaking me into realizing that I'm no different and I can't escape this culture and the best I can do is learn how to navigate in a positive, thoughtful, conscious manner. I'm not afraid to own my behavior, because we're all capable of the exact same potential. I'm just afraid I'll stop paying attention, which is what I'm always fighting for -- keeping my eyes and mind open to what's really going on and what the real motivations are.

Comments

[stuey.livejournal.com]

This is all extremely interesting. It has only been in the last year that I've finally stopped trying to prove that I wasn't racist, and dealt with the fact that, unless I can all of a sudden be black, I am racist.

From the time I was a wee-small, I was determined to "not see color." I recognized my privilege, but was shamed by it. I went out of my way to appear cool and liberal and tolerant...I went out of my way to diversify. (In the "diversity-training" sense of the word. Nothing more than simply tokenizing friends and other folks I knew.)

But most of the time, I ignored it. I didn't see color because I didn't have to. I am white. I can pretend it's not my issue, I can pretend I'm doing a "good" thing by volunteering at color-full after school programs, I can clasify black or latino kids as "at-risk" and not think about how strong and negative that language is.

I can ignore all of this and think "if only I could get into a poor community of color and show them what they need to do to better themselves"...

But it's bullshit. Just because I can do/think/say these things, doesn't mean that I should, and it doesn't mean that I should stand idly by while others around me (specifically white kids) do/think/say these things.

I am the first to admit that I have been a victim of liberal guilt. Now I know it's not enough to be conscious of that...I've got to do something with my privilege (and realize that it's up to me to education myself) in order to be an ally.

This corn-fed, Iowa-bred, surrounded-by-white-folks-all-the-time girl needs help with that.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I think liberal white guilt is a good starting point, but it's important to push through and actually do more about it. I don't mean "do" in the volunteer at the homeless shelter way. I mean think critically about our own thoughts and actions and most importantly -- start challenging other white people. That's the next big step. Who cares if we make it known to our black/asian/latino/etc. friends that we're "cool" with them -- that should be assumed. The next big scary step is actually stepping up to the plate with other white folks and pushing and challenging them.

And the other thing I tell people is read. Read, read, read. Read multiple news sources, multiple editorials, alternate newspapers and sources from communities that are not yours. I think it's a great starting point, particularly for people who might be in areas that don't have lots of non-white people.

:)

Re:

[stuey.livejournal.com]

I didn't mean "do" in the volunteer-at-the-homeless-shelter way either, just to clairfy. I think that's one of the problems. That white folks think they can simply jump into a community of non-white folks and "help." (Because we typically "help" in ways that we think are good and necessary, and not in ways that are good and necessary.)

Thanks for the tips. I may be a bit further along than you would think, but I have a long way to go...

P.S. Because you used "black people" and not "people of color" in your second question, I was thinking in those terms when answering the first question. I do only have 2 or so black friends, but I think of it in the context of where I live. 1/3 of my friends are hispanic (Cuban, Puerto Rican, Mexican American), a couple are American Indian, Asian American, Arab. I think the ratio would be different were I in a different city, but maybe not. Maybe I'm not opening myself up enough. Why am I being defensive?

[dannyboi.livejournal.com]

Interesting and thought-provoking I thought. I wanted to make a comment before but didn't have time. Of course, sometimes the "real" answer wasn't there so I had to pick the closest thing. As far as the seat on the bus goes, I must admit that I usually pick the seat next to the person most conditioned to take up the least amount of space. I almost never sit next to a white guy cause his shoulders are broad and he spreads his legs apart and doesn't care if you are hanging on to the edge. Does anyone else think of this or is it just me?

[geechee.livejournal.com]

I almost never sit next to a white guy cause his shoulders are broad and he spreads his legs apart and doesn't care if you are hanging on to the edge.
a lot of men do that, not just white guys tho' and that shit annoys me to no end. i hate it when i'm already sitting on the inside seat and they sit next to me and spread their legs apart as much as they can squeezing my little body next to the window. i usually push back and they either get embarrassed or think i'm crazy. i prefer crazy.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I like to push back as well -- spreading my legs and leaning with my shoulders. Then sometimes I play on their homophobia by OVERtouching them, which sometimes makes them cower in the corner.

(But if a woman (or considerate man) sits next to me, I'm always careful to stay on my side of the line. My effort to be a "good guy".)

Re:

[geechee.livejournal.com]

Then sometimes I play on their homophobia by OVERtouching them, which sometimes makes them cower in the corner.
hehehe. awesome.

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

and that's possible to do if you're read as an adult white male. if you're not, though, it could lead to a rude interaction at least and dangerous interaction at most.

speaking from experience, unfortunately,

jessie

[raybear.livejournal.com]

Oh, I know! I wasn't trying to say everyone should do as I do, Jessie. Geechee was sharing her personal techinique, I was sharing mine. That's all.

Re:

[clockwatcher.livejournal.com]

I was just thinking that in any interaction there are lots of negotiations that take place between people's identifications and where they stand.

Tim Wise is great, thanks for posting his stuff, and I thought of you today as there was a sullen black teenager sitting on the metro taking up the whole seat and no one asked him to move so they could sit(and I was the only white person in the car, except for one middle aged white woman reading a newspaper). Fer real!

My pet peeve: when men take up too much space when sitting down!

:)

Jessie

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

I think I need to hear your definition of race before I accept that 70% (or 100%) of all whites are racists.

I notice race, just as I notice hair color or physical shape, but I don't use it to make snap judgements about people. Two of my last three sexual partners were black (which would have been an interesting question for your survey, the way), I've hired to black employees in the last three years based solely on their resumes (one has moved on to greener pastures), and one of my closest friends (and former roommate for two years) is black.

So, IF I'm a racist, what makes me one?

I will admit to being a classist... or is that elitist? I wouldn't give a second thought to sitting on a bus next to a well-groomed black man in a business suit, but would pause if that same man were in dressed in dirty clothes or appeared to suffer from poor grooming or hygiene, or if he were dressed in gangsta-style clothing. But I'd avoid sitting next to a white guy dressed like that, too.

So I don't think it's as much about race for me as it is about profiling based on a number of cues, of which race seems to be the least significant.

...some of my best friends are black...

[cloudsdescendin.livejournal.com]

n/m

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[geechee.livejournal.com]

ditto.

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

...some of my best friends are black...

Pithy, but it doesn't really address my point.

I do have biases, to which I will admit. I do sometimes jump to conclusions about people based on outward appearances or superficial behavior, but I don't use race to automatically exclude (or include) people from being a part of my life, be it at work or at play.

If I'm a racist for noticing that a friend is black, then I'm a follicalist for noting that most of my friends shave their heads and sport goatees, or a sexist for noticing that my oldest friend is a female (yep, some of my best friends are female... so what?)

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[raybear.livejournal.com]

Noticing someone's race does not make you racist. On the contrary, people who claim to "see no color" annoy me. For me, the issue is more about recognizing that there are cultural differences between people because of their race -- NOT that the skin color itself causes personality traits, but that skin color causes people in the world to respond to you differently which effects your experience and shapes one's life. And for white people to admit that they have no idea what it's like to be a black man or a latino woman in the American at this time and shouldn't try to conform all life experiences to fit our model of life as a white person.

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[geechee.livejournal.com]

pithy maybe but imho, accurate. it sums up the well-worn tactic of listing black (or other people of color) acquaintances/coworkers/blah,blah,blah to prove you're not a racist or don't use race as an exclusive agent in determining your behavior around people of color. most black people i know cringe when whites start doing that listing thing. guess why. if that's not what you were doing fine.

then I'm a follicalist for noting that most of my friends shave their heads and sport goatees, or a sexist for noticing that my oldest friend is a female (yep, some of my best friends are female... so what?)
overly simplistic as well as apples and oranges. come on now. and pithy ≠ simplistic

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

"overly simplistic as well as apples and oranges."

Well, then you place more importance on racial-based genetic characteristics than I do. The color of a persons skin, to me, is of equal importance as the color of their hair, the shape of their face, the size of their ears, the amount of hair on their head.

And if I can't provide examples of how people of color play a significant role in my life, how else am I supposed to take issue against a claim that I AM racist by virtue of my skin color? What other less 'well-worn' tactics do I have to refute the charge?

As an urban dweller in a city where there is no racial majority (whites make up 42.1% of Houston's population), I don't think I could function at all if I were racist... if I let a person's racial genetics play a part in if/how I interacted with them, I'd have to barracade myself in my apartment and never come out.

I'm a gay white male in a city full of people who aren't. And I truly feel that I can cherish the non-gay, non-white, and none-male people in my life, despite being different from all of them.

I know I"m supposed to be working, but..

[raybear.livejournal.com]

...I can't let this comment go.

Well, then you place more importance on racial-based genetic characteristics than I do.

You have the luxury of not placing importance on them because you are white. She can't just pretend that color doesn't matter because she sees it every time she looks in the mirror, and moreover, she sees it in the faces of people who treat her differently because of it.

That's all fine and good that skin color is as important to you as hair color, but be careful to not minimize the impact skin color has for people in this country and in this world. And it's rather whitecentric (trying to avoid the word "racist" here) to insist on people of color not acknowledging that is DOES make a difference. Even if we're all morally opposed to race making a difference, the simple fact is that is DOES.

Being around people of color does not automatically make you NOT racist. I think that's the point she's trying to make with the reference to listmaking. (Also, I'm sure there are plenty of racist folks in Houston, just like in every other city, and racial composition has nothing to do with it.)

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[geechee.livejournal.com]

Well, then you place more importance on racial-based genetic characteristics than I do. ? i realize that my skin color determines how whites act toward me, yes. if that's what you mean. otherwise that sentence baffles me.

The color of a persons skin, to me, is of equal importance as the color of their hair, the shape of their face, the size of their ears, the amount of hair on their head.
it is my skin color not my hair color or the shape of my ears which causes me to be at the receiving end of racism even. and when i'm looking andro wearing gangsta style clothes on the subway.

What other less 'well-worn' tactics do I have to refute the charge?
that's for you to decide and that the tactic reeks of defensiveness. even if you don't mean for it to do so. sorry, it does. but i'm just speaking for me and the people of color i know, ok?

i spent several summers in houston growing up. still have many relatives who live there. and it is still blighted by racism in many, many ways. if not, there would be no reason for black gays and lesbians in houston to have their own black pride, splash.

And I truly feel that I can cherish the non-gay, non-white, and none-male people in my life, despite being different from all of them.
that's great.

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

Hell, yes I get defensive, and for the very reason you just brought up... racism still blights our culture, everywhere, not just in Houston. Racists are responsible for horrible atrocities against their objects of hate... why wouldn't I get defensive?

Also, I have never said that racism doesn't exist or that it's not a significant detrimental influence on how a person-of-color experiences life. I just reject the blanket generalization that all white people are racist by virtue of being white.

Finally, you have assigned me a significant behavioral characteristic based on nothing more than the color of my skin. What does that make you?

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[raybear.livejournal.com]

Finally, you have assigned me a significant behavioral characteristic based on nothing more than the color of my skin. What does that make you?


PLEASE do not go down this road. It is NOT the same thing. You are a white man with loads and loads and gobs and gobs of privilege.
Plus, she wasn't making generalizations based solely on your skin color -- she was basing it on your comments and arguments. And for the record, I am the one who called you (and every other white person) racist.

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[geechee.livejournal.com]

you have assigned me a significant behavioral characteristic based on nothing more than the color of my skin
puh-leeze. i have assigned you nothing more than what you have shown.

Re: ...some of my best friends are black...

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

To all
I sit here, my blood running cold in my veins. It's an interesting sensation. And my extremities are shaking, especially my forearms and wrists. And I'm feeling nauseous. I'm guessing it's the result of 'fight or flight' hormones surging through my body. I'm literally sickened by this entire conversation.

*deep breath*

I apologize for that last sentence in my previous post. It came out of a sincere feeling that I'm being categorized, and a further feeling of helplessness in the face of that categorization to defend myself.

To qeechee
I'll ask again. What can an anonymous white person (anonymous to you, at least) write in this kind of medium to refute a charge of racism - a defense that you would find acceptable, as clearly mine was not? I've offered the only defense I can think of, short of "Am Not!!!"

I will admit to a lot of things. But not to the charge that I carry and act on "the belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others," which is the dictionary.com definition of racism.

To Raybear
I definitely see your point. You're saying that, by virtue of being a member of the priveleged majority, I have the luxury of being able to ignore race. But I don't see how that makes me a racist. Actually, it's kind of damned-if-do, damned-if-don't proposition. If I do judge people by the color of their skin, I'm a racist for forming that judgement. But if I don't judge someone by the color of their skin, I'm a racist for having the luxury to form that judgement.

I'll ask you a similar question. How would a white person behave, or what could they say, to show that he or she isn't racist? And if all white people ARE racist, regardless of their beliefs or actions, doesn't that dilute the meaning of that word to the point that it has no meaning? I mean if both the KKK Grand Wizard and Mother Theresa can be both be considered racist, then 'racist' has no meaning at all.

I have to tell you, this afternoon's experience has only served to instill within me a fear of having these kinds of discussions online at all. Qeechee's reaction, especially, makes me suspect that a conversation about racism can't be held on an intellectual level between members of opposite races until they know one another on a personal level.

I have had such conversations in the past with my friends of other races without fear of being pigeonholed or categorized, and I'm guessing I will continue to do so. But online? With people I don't know? No way!! I think this internet message thread will be my last where race and racism is concerned.

And that's kind of a shame, isn't it?

[raybear.livejournal.com]

(I'll try not to make this too long!)

How would a white person behave, or what could they say, to show that he or she isn't racist?

This is a hard question for me to answer, since I don't think it's possible for a white person to be cured and not be racist. Instead, I think everyday we have to make choices to go against all the privilege we're giving. To put this in a concrete way, there basically IS nothing you can say that will wash your hands of the problem, and when one attempts to make a list (or just say "am not") it trivializes the problem into a simple black and white problem (no pun intended really), or a good and evil problem. So in a discussion, I'd recommend addressing whatever the issues are related to race in a sensitive and open way, without just saying "I'm not racist". It's not a productive way of dealing with a problem anyway, because you're putting everything on an "other" and no claming any responsibility in trying to fix the problem -- and I believe it's EVERYBODY's responsibility.

And if all white people ARE racist, regardless of their beliefs or actions, doesn't that dilute the meaning of that word to the point that it has no meaning? I mean if both the KKK Grand Wizard and Mother Theresa can be both be considered racist, then 'racist' has no meaning at all.

I understand your point, and it's a compeletely valid concern, but to me racism is a spectrum, not one isolate place of being. So the Grand Wizard and me are both located on the spectrum, just not in the same place. But we were both taught similar things because we're both white people in America.
And that's kind of a shame, isn't it?

That's your choice to no longer engage in these discussions, and I'll of course respect it. But it's not anyone else'e "fault" (which is what I felt you were implying).

You're right about the difficulty in engaging in discussions of race online with someone you don't know, but I think it's possible. However, I find it interesting that you continually chose to reply to Geechee more often that Daniel and I -- two white guys who were trying to share our experience. Chances are, we've thought and experienced the same things. I'm NOT saying that white people can't talk to people of color about race -- I"m saying that white people can't talk articulately about race with people of color until they've done some work to explore what it's like to be non-white in america and analyzed the construction of whiteness. And it's NOT the responsibility of people of color to educate us on these matters -- I firmly believe it's my job as a white person to educate and explore with other white people, continually pushing boundaries and challenging ideas of privilige. We (as white people) should not go to people of color to absolve us of our white privilige.

And in the end, I think that's how I show that I'm "not racist" (by your definition). Or at least not as racist (by my definition).

Ardor, I'm sorry if this discussion caused you physical distress. But to be honest, I think it's important for white people to occasionally experience some of the sensations of extreme discomfort, since most of the time in life, we don't have to. Also, I highly recommend all the suggested readings made by other folks in this discussion, and I really would love to know what you think of some of them. I'm always open for more discussion -- I will be thinking more about privilege v. racism and my use of the words and whether the contexts are too strong.

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

"I think it's important for white people to occasionally experience some of the sensations of extreme discomfort, since most of the time in life, we don't have to."

I grew up gay in a southern blue-collar city (Beaumont, TX). I lived in a constant state of discomfort until I came out at the age of 25 or 26, and it took another decade before I was comfortable enough to be 'out' in all aspects of my life, including with my family and at work. To this day, however, I still watch how I act in public, especially with Sugarbear. I'm just today, this very moment, realizing that part of me has assumed that all straight people are homophobes, so I have adjusted my behavior appropriately to prevent a negative reaction. Sound familiar? I might claim that I don't think all straight folks are homophobic, but my behavior belies that. The last remaining vestiges of my internalized homophobia are based on the assumption that all straight people are homophobic.

By virtue of being oppressed by some, I assume all are oppressive, and therefore oppress myself to avoid oppression.

So now I have a choice. Do I retain that assumption and let it dictate how I live the rest of my life? Or do I let go of that assumption and rob it of the oppressive hold it has had on my self-esteem and behavior?

Not a very hard decision, is it?

I vow that, starting today, I will no longer edit my behavior around my friends and lover when we're in public. I shouldn't care how strangers judge me, but I can't stop caring until I stop assuming every straight person is out to judge and/or hurt me. That assumption has had a powerful hold on me of which I was completely unaware. Now I know, and I can put it behind me.

What an epiphany!!

[raybear.livejournal.com]

I don't believe all people are consciously racist -- congratulation on not making snap judgments based on color. But what about subconcious or unconscious choices we make every day?

I definie racism as prejudice combined with power. White people are the dominant group in the global game (even if we aren't the majority), and that power circulates down to everyone. All white people are racist because we've received privilige and advantages in this world because we're white, and we generally do nothing to stop this. Sure, that's great that you hired black employees, though I'm curious -- have you been hired by a black person? And by that I mean, how often have you encountered non-white workers in management positions and places of power?

I'm not saying all white people are bigots -- I'm saying all white people live within the current power dynamic that currently places white people above all others as being smarter, better, more normal, richer, and better educated.

One of my favorite author's on race is Tim Wise -- most of his essays can be found HERE. I'd be curious to know what you think of some of them.

Re:

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

If I accept your definition, doesn't that mean that any member of a non-white community that is excluded from the 'smarter, better, more normal, richer, and better-educated' group is automatically NOT a racist? It's sounds like you're using 'racist' in a kind of neutral way, when the rest of society considers it a loaded word, akin to 'white supremicist'.

At my company, women and blacks are well-represented in management positions in the client service support divisions (administrative cost centers like HR, IT, Accounting & Finance, Marketing, etc.), but not so much as leadership in the client service profit centers (senior managers and partners in the tax, accounting, and consulting practices).

I've never been hired, or interviewed for that matter, by a person-of-color, and all except one of my bosses in the last ten years have been women (that's one male to nine females) - all my bosses, since I was first waiting tables at the age of 18, have been white. Didn't really realize that until this very moment. Does discussing race automatically make one a racist?

I'll admit to giving hiring preference to a gay man once. Fortunately, he was the most qualified among the candidates (although I stopped interviewing after I spoke with him), but I think I might have hired him anyway, as he was qualified enough for the job.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

If I accept your definition, doesn't that mean that any member of a non-white community that is excluded from the 'smarter, better, more normal, richer, and better-educated' group is automatically NOT a racist?

From many studies I've read, everyone holds the same prejudices: everyone tends to view white as normal and correct and best, even the non-white participants in the study. I should go and try and find the published results somewhere.

Does discussing race automatically make one a racist?

If so, based on yesterday and today's post, I'd be super-racist!

For me, the most interesting statement in your comment is this: "Didn't really realize that until this very moment." I think white people discuss race a lot when it comes to non-white things, but we never talk about race in the context of white -- and by that, I mean what you were just saying. Noticing that all your employers have been white. Noticing how many white and non-white people are in a room, in a company, in the positions of power. I think it's more "racist" to ignore these facts.

[geechee.livejournal.com]

everyone tends to view white as normal and correct and best, even the non-white participants in the study
i wish to gawd that weren't true but it is. hence michael jackson. i gotta get the f*@k offline.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

i think we (collectively) need to come up with some sort of value-free term to use in appropriate situations where, for lack of a better word, "racism" is used.

like, honestly, when i think "racist," i first think: someone (not me) (a white someone) who thinks that black people (and sometimes other people of color, but this thought is often in a black-vs-white context) are less than white people, possibly even less than human. who would discriminate in thought and action, who may perpetrate violence based on skin color.

this is the same thought that says: racism==evil.

the problem is that this thought tends to shut down any constructive processes of examining the complications of race, race awareness, race lack of awareness, race self-consciousness, what have you... like, yeah, i can count on the fingers of one hand the people of color i have dated--and it's not like i ever forget that they were people of color. does this mean that i wasn't close to them, loving toward them, encompassing my awareness of them as whole and unique human beings, desiring to share similarities and differences in our cultures and upbringings? no.

does this mean that i am free of all of the cultural baggage and self-consciousness about race that comes with growing up white in a mostly-white suburban mid-atlantic town? no. does is mean that i am racist, or have racist elements in me?

what does "racist" mean?

as a well-intentioned white person who tries to be at least a step above a knee-jerk, liberal-guilt well-intentioned white person, i want to be able to discuss the complexities of race and my own from-childhood responses that i am and am not aware of, that i have learned or denied or worked with or worked against... how to have this discussion without calling in the word racist? how to bring in the word racist without feeling defensive or even shutting down all conversation?

Re:

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

Our responses crossed in the ether... yours expressed things much MUCH better than mine.

[danielray.livejournal.com]

:)

oh, an addition, though, because i actually didn't 100% complete my thought:

so that said,
there are people, ray one of them, who are trying to tackle the whole project and, in a way, reclaim the word 'racism'--to be able to use it in a sense that is relatively neutral, that *isn't* about racism==evil (but rather racism==difficult/complicated(?)). after all, there really aren't any other words that *do* exist, and it becomes a viable word for discussion and an ever=present reminder of the power of what one is talking about. in this conext, it seems like "racism" is not an accusation, but is rather a problem posed to be embraced and tackled...

there are some interesting similarities/differences there with reclaiming such words as dyke and fag and that n-word that i totally don't feel i have the right to say... there is a certain sense of relief in trying to own the term racist--it's like, 'oh... that's the worst of it, the world hasn't ended... now i can stop feeling like i need to prove i'm *not* racist, and get on with the interesting and possibly productive stuff...'

and there's a similar sense of when/where that particular use of the term will be understood. like, i know when ray uses the term "racist" in lj, he is often talking about that other thing for which we do not have a word, and the offensiveness of the word is a challenge or a call. it feels similar to being around queer folk and using the word queer or dyke or fag.

on the other hand, i can see where people who don't know that, people who aren't part of this... community of people who are reclaiming the word and bringing that in as an understanding? ... will feel the force of the word as it is traditionally known and have a hard time working with it... kind of like how, when i use the word "queer" in straight or older LG communities, they see the offensiveness of the term and i find that i need to give elaborate explanations, or else conversation gets shut down a lot.

and it's more complicated, because who exactly are the people who are trying to use "racist" in this challenging way? it's not a clear-cut ascriptive identity that marks the boundaries, it's not as much an insider/outsider thing, i don't think...

Re:

[endogenousardor.livejournal.com]

You bring up some very valid points. Terms like racist, bigot, prejudice, sexist, supremicist are loaded words with very negative connotations that can, as with me, create a defensive reaction when used as a label.

We all 'profile' folks based on a lot of visual and verbal cues, race being among them, even if for many it becomes of secondary significance. We need a word for the fact that white straight people view the world differently than non-white, non-straight people, but without using a word such as 'racist' whose connatation can obscure an otherwise meaningful conversation.

I don't think the word CAN be reclaimed. I think we need a different word, although I can't think of one at the moment.

[raybear.livejournal.com]

i think we (collectively) need to come up with some sort of value-free term to use in appropriate situations where, for lack of a better word, "racism" is used.

I agree that would be useful, but I do think sometimes it's important to still have a word that has some negative connotation so that people will be more likely to struggle against it. I sometimes find it helpful to use the word (which is equated with absolute evil) and talk about it as having various effects and levels.

how to bring in the word racist without feeling defensive or even shutting down all conversation?

and of course, this is the big struggle i have all the time. people think they're good people, and they're right. but they assume good people aren't racist. I often try to bring to the table my own experience and ways that I've fcked up or done/thought/said horrible things, as a way of showing that being "racist" is something we all struggle with. but I'm hesitent to complete ignore the word, partly because I think it's dangerous to make ourselves too removed from the people in the white sheets and hoods.

[epilady.livejournal.com]

This just came up (again) in another online community of mine, and in that thread, the convo rapidly devolved into the "white" people either getting waaaay defensive and denying any shred of white privilege, or leaping to chastize the openly racist posters, loudly proclaiming their alliance with all people of color...which is basically defensiveness and denial. It was extra tragic because the community's POC really put themselves out bravely and very graciously to help the white members see their own racism and privilege, and were repeatedly met with denial, anger, and evasiveness. And then were told that they were "harping" on it, or being too "angry." Really, really frustrating to watch.

I really feel like it's the responsibility of "white" people in this culture to continually educate themselves as to how, no matter how committed they may be to the eradication of racism in themselves or in their culture, they benefit from their socially perceived whiteness. I think, personally, that while not all white people are consciously racist, that failing to be vigilant and honest about one's own unconscious racism (privilege, stereotypes, fetishization, white guilt, etc.) is a racist practice - you are asserting your privilege not to be responsible for the part your attitudes play in the system. And even the most determined antiracist "white" people simply aren't placed in the position of having to think about race every day, all day. We all do it. So yes, every "white" person in a society that privileges whiteness is by definition racist.

But I do try, in conversation, to make a distinction between "white privilege" and "racism." Most white Americans don't think of themselves as racists; talking about "white privilege" makes this very difficult situation easier to approach.

Anyway...

Peggy McIntosh has a very useful essay online which can help uncover some of the ways in which some people benefit from white privilege (http://www.utoronto.ca/acc/events/peggy1.htm).

Women, queers, immigrants & their descendants, and poor/working-class people often fail to recognize their own racism because they're also disadvantaged by the system, albeit in very different ways. They are perhaps less able to see the ways in which whiteness has made their life easier. A great sociological text that addresses this (it's not just for women) is White Women, Race Matters: The Social Construction of Whiteness by Ruth Frankenberg. I think this is also the text that categorizes different types of racism, including the oh-so-insidious "color-blindness."

Both worth a read...

[raybear.livejournal.com]

Thanks for your thoughts....and the links! I'll be re-thinking my use of certain words and the best ways to utilize them so I can effectively communicate. It's weird, because when I say "all white people are racist" among my friends of color who've thought critically about race and such, I get nothing but agreement. So I forget that I need to modify my language at times, especially among other white people (who haven't thought critically about race and their own privilege).

And I agree, Frankenberg's book is good!

[venus-flytrap.livejournal.com]

aye, this is so so so so so so SO much more intelligent that other conversations around perjorative slang i have found myself embroiled in as of late. (btw, i came here via geechee).

my tiny point to add is that - please people PLEASE stop saying race is "colour." aye yi yi yi. that in itself could be considered racist. at the very least, race is "culture": the food we eat, the way we talk (our dialects, slang, sentence structure, formalities), the way we dress and act, the way we express our sexualities when around our families and those of our culture...

i think that, besides the extreme "KKK" level of racism, that reducing race to "colour" is really one of the most ignorant things to do. it's erasing who i am, the history i carry and my mother's special recipe for aloo pie. i am brown; my culture is different than the many shades of black, and yellow, and red, and white.

i will admit - i have found other cultures' foods to be bizarre, manners to be too formal or too lax, dialects to be too pretentious or too vague. am i racist? i won't deny it. i think it's really hard to see where i'm drawing my own lines, where someone really is rude, and where perhaps they're just louder than i am. if someone hurts me, or makes me feel repeatedly uncomfortable, i trust myself. but other than that, i will admit i have far to go and much to learn, and denying that doesn't really help things along, does it.

[gotmce99.livejournal.com]

It was a really interesting survey to take...even though it can be hard to be so honest when all of these people that you know or kind of know are going to read it. I did wish there was an essay section, though, 'cause I'm a big fan of grey area. I think I'mm just going to make this comment my essay section.

Second question: Theoretically, I could count all of the black people who've been in my house, but it would take longer than the few seconds that i think you asked us to make up our mind in. Though, it gets tricky...I kind of took my "house" to mean all of the places that I ever lived, both growing up and while at school...I don't think I'd ever be accurate, but I could give a better estimate than "too many to count." Maybe 40...and that's with the assumption that South Africa didn't count because I was so transient. No..."too many to count" would only refer to the number of white people that have been in my house. hahaha.

Third/Fourth Question: I've found that my quirky/ironic use of slang makes my black friends laugh and my white friends (most of them) uncomfortable. I'm not certain why that is (ok, I have my suspicions.) I won't use slang around people I don't know though...I want them to know ME and my intentions before they get the wrong idea.

Fifth Question: Loved it loved it loved it. I overcompensate all the time, and I've always been very torn on what it means. I remember the first time I obviously did it...I was on a school trip in France and this announcement came over the Metro loudspeaker to watch out for pickpockets. At about the same time, a group of laughing French black teenagers, about my age, piled onto the car with us...two of the older women I was with started being all protective of me, and it just made me so pissed off and sick to my stomach. I mean, I'm sure they were EXACTLY like the kids I went to high school with AND WERE NOT PICKPOCKETS, THIEVES OR ANYTHING OF THAT SORT!! So I stuck my backpack over to them, took my hands out of my pockets and did everything in their direction that would make myself an easy target...knowing that it wasn't a problem and that it would piss off these old white women. It sounds really stupid...I mean, clearly I was singling out those kids, much as i would single out the guy in Raybear's example, so that's pretty damned racist...but isn't that a better sort of way of dealing with/recognizing/fighting racism? Or perhaps it just tokenizes and dehumanizes people of color!! Most of my black friends are less worried about how I'm fighting and mostly just glad that I care. At least that's what they say. I'm sure they also think I'm ignorant...but at least I'm not oblivious.

Sixth Question: I know that I'm ignorant, but there are some REALLY ignorant white people out there. i mean...read, think, get a grip on reality. It's not a class thing, it's a white thing -- wealthy white people sometimes seem to have even less of a grip on reality...at least that's my experience at AU.

ok, I have to go. I'm beign kicked off the computer.

marg